interview C. + H.

H Yeah, “Can you recall a moment in the project when and issue/problem came up?" I think a big problem is there are a lot of different expectations and there are a lot of people struggling to balance theory and practice. So there was a frustration that grew. So the issue came up, and I remember that to organize, one evening — really in an organic way —people were free to just do things, just do do do do do. It was really efficient to release the frustration and the tension. So it was a good strategy and, yeah, that was just my idea. For me, it was like it was good to start with a lot of discretion, but also, at one point, have this time to do stuff.

C Maybe more spaces before to have a moment of self-expression or something to do with the own practice of people. We had a very short time to put this into practice… more in a performative way of the poetry slam practice. When we went online, we were going back to very theoretical stuff, and there is even less time for practice. So it is really natural that we learn from this moment. You have something else in mind?

H Yeah, I have, but you do?

C Alors, yes, a lot. “A moment of the project when an issue/problem came up”… There is a problem of status regarding someone. I don't know if I can say the name or not, but... or as first status of facilitators, but during the first week this person suddenly received the status of participant, and it was really weird. The problem was not really solved because this person left the project, and we never talked about it since then. And for me, it's still painful, and so I think another way it could be solved by just… talk about it, maybe with the group because I'm sure a lot of people forget even this person and, yeah, and expose the problem with the group maybe or something, I don't know.

H I remember now, but I forgot, yeah. But why this person was facilitator and then participant and then no more?

C I don't know.

H Was it the person who decided not to come, or was it…?

C I think it was another facilitator from the same school who changed a bit the position of this person. Even in the presentation of the team of this school this person was not involved in front of the large group, it was so problematic to leave this person on the side, at the margin.

H Ah, it was in Besançon? OK. Yeah, maybe I did some… I don't know, the point that I felt that it was interesting to have three different schools but not schools, like we were not all in the school, but with Gothenburg and Brussels and Besançon, and that's something that I felt that there were quite a continuum between Brussels and Gothenburg and that's not working at all like for sure all the time, but there is a trying of horizontality that even if it's a good intention, it's not working very well. I felt, this intention between facilitator, educator and people that come into project. But I felt that there was really a distance with the Besançon group that I felt in this group really. In all the things, I see super verticals in between facilitator and students. It's the only group that I really see like students. The way that the facilitators speak and the speech of the students, but also in terms of space for the voice to be vocalized and also like internal problem that I've heard from Besançon and stuff.

And then today we heard also like feedback of C. and M., that there are a lot of problems in the group. So maybe, this thing was never solved so much. So maybe when there is a programme with three different schools, maybe there is a way to not give all the power to the responsible —I don't know —of one school to do this stuff, but maybe to kind of have a transparency, like a team that is responsible for the whole process, to be sure that everything is transparent. But I don't even know if it will be suited now because it represents a lot of work, but because, yeah, I have also the impression today that in Besançon there are things that need to be said that were not completely said. Or the impression that things are really problematic. And so yeah, maybe it cannot have, like, horizontality if in one of the schools there is super vertical position and that's problematic. But I was not so much in that, I discovered that today and I think because we are three schools working together possibly it can be important to know the process in each school was able to change that, but because I was under the impression that we are really diverse in many topics, but in this thing in Besançon, I feel that there is really like a sneaky and bad things, but that are not so much addressed. I don't know. I'm a stranger to those stories, so I don't know, but I felt that a bit today.

C Do you have any ideas of other problems? I was not really involved in this problem. But I just remember the last day on Friday after the evening at the De Markten, there is a conflict situation between participants… I try to not say names. And at that moment, the person of trust, we — because we asked Carolina to be a trust person — yeah, at that, at that moment, she could really work on this problem. So I was thinking someone was taking care of this conflict. And it was nice to have Carolina with us to do that emotional job. It's a bit of a pity that she's not here today because… Or to have her during the whole process, to have this… For all the issues come up to after the January week, it could be helpful to have this trust person to receive and to collect the issues and the problems and so on. Something else?

H Yeah, there's something for me, but it's like I disconnected completely with the project for months. And I felt guilty to leave. And then it was the kind of vicious cycle, like I was “oh I am not here any more”, and then trying to go back but don't finding the legitimacy to miss one year and come back and stuff. And I think this was shared by some people also. And a really nice thing that happened is that there are these little groups working on specific topics that were created. I think it's like really, really, really nice, because that was really needed. But maybe because in a way perhaps I did not do the job, or I'm also responsible for leaving and stuff. But I felt that also because it was difficult with COVID, like it's a crisis, then a lot of anxiety happened, and then these new tools that are not easy to use, Skype and stuff when you are used to working with live people. And when I woke up with the TTTT, and then I want to come back a bit, I felt and that's normal part of the process, also that each group were really intimate and kind of far in the process. So that I was a bit a kind of tourist, so I didn't take the space to come back in group. And I think that's normal because people continue to work. But maybe there will be solution to work within this situation of crisis and of shifting of way of working that a lot of people also like lose completely interest sometimes in working in those tools or motivation and maybe there is a way to bring them back. But that's not a critique, that's really a question, because I really felt that one moment I was like feeling guilty or like oh what I'm doing, and then one moment I was really happy to not be here any more. And then one moment I decided now I'm ready to come back and then I felt a bit And where? Yeah, and I don't want also to take time off a group that is really advanced. So in a way I was also like responsible for that solution, from that thing to drop completely, but starting from the point that maybe the group completely stop, maybe can be nice to have a solution to let people come in if it's representing other people maybe it's can be...

C Yeah, maybe a way to do it, it's to say it from the beginning. But it was Yeah, because at what point we want people to commit where if they're in or out the project, just to know on which energy we can count for the rest of the programme. So of course it's difficult to make a comeback with this situation because we asked for commitment, but I have the experience in another group and another project and we said since the beginning of the project —but it's a complete different project —you can come in and out when you want and you are always welcome. But this was said since really the beginning of the project, so the structure of the project is built on in-and-out. So that's true, here, really, I totally understand your position: at the same time you want to come back, and you don't know where and when. Of course, there is really no place for it.

H But maybe a way to solve the problem is… because I felt a bit, not isolating, but I was like feeling guilty about yeah you're losing, or I don't know that people count on me and then I kind of break the trust thing like I'm not here anymore. And then I met one person that say that, the same, stop the project, and then met another person that started the project that may not know the person that started the project. And then we are easing little by little that's like really a lot, and then I meet you in one party noise enemy Tommy. Hi, good to see you. Yeah, no, no worry a lot of people are substitution for maybe to make a point in the middle to hear the situation, like we lost like half of the group in the process, and it would be cool to have transparency. At one moment I was doubting, am I the only person left? Then I realized that it was really only in the Brussels group. And then same in all the groups. So maybe to have regular meeting say the situation is that there are many people that left? Where are you? How are you feeling? Do you want to come back? Or do you want space for yourself? Is it okay? Possibly can be nice to have this. Because it was completely new. It was like really like the project started, and it was really the beginning of the COVID, that was really like a new situation for everybody. So we all have a different way of reacting to this new reality.

H This is something else? Well, I think it's time to go. Yeah, she said, just before three. Okay. Yes. And that maybe this solution to be proposed, it's like to have like a working group, but maybe to have like kind of an open group that is kind of, you can go just express the feeling of where you are, ensuring a permanence, that you can go there, and this not only as a working group. So maybe an independent group that is a bit more flexible, could be a solution.

C Yeah, nice.